V.A.R. - Good for Purpose??

[StuardoWulf]

It's on the Premier Lesgue website.

The cameras are 50fps. They choose the first frame where the ball comes into contact with the passer's foot. Not when it leaves it.

So that should be pretty consistent given that level. Still can be abused though if they happen to go and extra frame or two further forward "by mistake".

Thanks Bear I think in all fairness that that is fair enough.

On a general point with the Souness suggestion wouldn't that just move the controversy to another point on the pitch. I'd rather ditch VAR and have 4 linos which of course could be used in every league. But VAR is now an industry and it will not be scrapped. I don't look forward to the anger this is causing getting out of control. At the City games people were so irate it was quite unsettling. Football is entertainment not science. Why does the PL need to use different parameters than the rest of Europe doesn't this put our teams at a disadvantage when participating in European competition.

 

[PuntsWolf]

If you just change the thickness of the lines, then you are simply adding in some leeway/doubt. Which means these fractional decisions by mm would disappear.

Yes I can go with this. This is basically an extension of what I’m saying. If they look offside they are offside and if they look onside then they would be and even if their toe was off the marginal thing you allude to would disappear.

 

[jlo]

Perhaps the suggestion of scrapping offside isn't actually the worst idea in the world.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Kenny]

So, I keep hearing the pundits say the managers voted in favour of having VAR this season and that is why we have it. I presume the PL put that vote to them, so chances the managers could pressure the PL into a vote for next season?

 

[StuardoWulf]

Balls and players can move a much longer distance than Jonny’s toe in 0.02s. It’s an utter nonsense, taking the joy and excitement out of the game.

At 15mph you cover 134mm in that time

1609 metres in a mile X 15= 24135 metres per hour
24135 divided by 3600 seconds 6.704 metres per second
6.704 metres divided by 50 (frame rate) = 0.134 metres = 134mm

So at 5mph 27mm - 1mph 5.4mm 0.22mph =1.2mm

 

[AndyWolves]

Which bellend though that this was the best use case for VAR?

Literally no one apart from PGMOL wanted this, simple offside replays without lines are sufficient. Our offside against Spurs last season would get over turned, literally no one had a problem with a little toe being offside.

Time will come where goals won't be treated by celebrations because fans will eventually get used to waiting for VAR. It's already started happening, I could see muted celebrations by the end of the season and at that point football has died.

I'm not sure you can put this genie back in the bottle either.

 

[Tredman]

At 15mph you cover 134mm in that time

1609 metres in a mile X 15= 24135 metres per hour
24135 divided by 3600 seconds 6.704 metres per second
6.704 metres divided by 50 (frame rate) = 0.134 metres = 134mm

So at 5mph 27mm - 1mph 5.4mm 0.22mph =1.2mm

Holy unit confusion batman.

 

[darlowolf64]

So, I keep hearing the pundits say the managers voted in favour of having VAR this season and that is why we have it. I presume the PL put that vote to them, so chances the managers could pressure the PL into a vote for next season?

How many times should they get to vote though? Brexit means Brexit! Oops, sorry, wrong thread

 

[AndyWolves]

Do we think the PGMOL will take any notice?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ce-var-should-overrule-clear-obvious-offside/

 

[darlowolf64]

Do we think the PGMOL will take any notice?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...ce-var-should-overrule-clear-obvious-offside/

Fuck no, of course they wont

 

[Johnny75]

It really isn’t. I’ll try again though, bored at work and all that.

They would have been given under the Old rules because it’s based on a man with a flag who can’t possibly make that call. I’ve got nothing wrong with that.

Put all those players Two yards forward. There’s still going to be overlap so by your rules you’d want that called onside?

And it has been proved a man with a flag gets tight decisions wrong at least 3 times in every 10.

Just for clarity what do you think is the definition of offside, what did you think it used to be and what do you want it to be?

 

[Rui_CostCo]

It's on the Premier Lesgue website.

The cameras are 50fps. They choose the first frame where the ball comes into contact with the passer's foot. Not when it leaves it.

So that should be pretty consistent given that level. Still can be abused though if they happen to go and extra frame or two further forward "by mistake".

If we are going to use var to eradicate what ammounted to a 3pc error rate on calls that were too fine for the human eye to spot then 50 fps is simply not fast enough to capture the moment contact is made with the ball. An iPhone 11 hits 120fps with ease and an S9 max's out at 960fps. If you are looking to significantly improve the accuracy of human capability then less than doubling the framerate the eye needs for natural motion isnt up to the job.

 

[Johnny75]

Thanks Bear I think in all fairness that that is fair enough.

On a general point with the Souness suggestion wouldn't that just move the controversy to another point on the pitch. I'd rather ditch VAR and have 4 linos which of course could be used in every league. But VAR is now an industry and it will not be scrapped. I don't look forward to the anger this is causing getting out of control. At the City games people were so irate it was quite unsettling. Football is entertainment not science. Why does the PL need to use different parameters than the rest of Europe doesn't this put our teams at a disadvantage when participating in European competition.

I keep hearing this. It's just not true and the two aren't mutually exclusive, the players use sports science, there are entire University courses which are science based on football, coaching courses are scientific in nature (experiment and repeat). The equipment is designed by engineers and the players are tuned according to science. Football is sport, it may well entertain and be classed as high art but it is unscripted unlike almost every other form of entertainment.

 

[Kenny]

"Clear and obvious still remains - it's an important principle. There should not be a lot of time spent to find something marginal," Brud told the PA news agency.


"If something is not clear on the first sight, then it's not obvious and it shouldn't be considered. Looking at one camera angle is one thing but looking at 15, trying to find something that was potentially not even there, this was not the idea of the VAR principle. It should be clear and obvious."

The Ifab stressed that the guidance on offside will not be new advice,

I mean, that is VAR and it would work superbly. Why have our lot completely ignored this

 

[Johnny75]

If we are going to use var to eradicate what ammounted to a 3pc error rate on calls that were too fine for the human eye to spot then 50 fps is simply not fast enough to capture the moment contact is made with the ball. An iPhone 11 hits 120fps with ease and an S9 max's out at 960fps. If you are looking to significantly improve the accuracy of human capability then less than doubling the framerate the eye needs for natural motion isnt up to the job.

Isn't the 50fps the broadcast rate not the capture rate? There are high speed cameras that Sky use that are 20,000fps and broadcast cameras that can go at 1650fps. I'm pretty sure that the cameras used for VAR are much higher capture rate that the 50fps the broadcasters use for our TV's.

 

[PuntsWolf]

And it has been proved a man with a flag gets tight decisions wrong at least 3 times in every 10.

Just for clarity what do you think is the definition of offside, what did you think it used to be and what do you want it to be?

In your one study maybe. The PL stats have It way higher than that and Depends what your are defining as “wrong”. Stats could say they got the Jonny one wrong live but in my mind he got it right.

By yours/ Souness rules this Alli one is onside. In my view it’s blatantly offside and that’s how it should be. It was called as offside and is an easy call to make.

 

[Johnny75]

I mean, that is VAR and it would work superbly. Why have our lot completely ignored this

It's my tin hat theory.

 

[Johnny75]

In your one study maybe. The PL stats have It way higher than that and Depends what your are defining as “wrong”. Stats could say they got the Jonny one wrong live but in my mind he got it right.

By yours/ Souness rules this Alli one is onside. In my view it’s blatantly offside and that’s how it should be. It was called as offside and is an easy call to make.

I'll ask again:

What do you class as offside now, in the past and what would you like it to be going forward?

The Premier league stats are for all offside decisions not just tight calls using the current rules (any body part is offside if it's beyond the last defender).

The picture you've chosen shows Deli Ali offside as no scoring body part is level with a defender (arms don't count. this is the most simple rule in football and yet two people have now got this wrong). It also may be the case that Alli started his run level with Arrons and has moved significantly from frame to frame as we don't know without the whole film when the ball touched Erikson's (or could be Lamela) boot. One thing is for certain the human eye has a 30% chance of getting that completely wrong if there was no player in the way, as it is it's probably closer to 100% guess from the linesman as they can't see shit.

 

[slink]

As they can measure how far offside someone is now can’t they just say of you are offside by this much then it’s offside. Pretty sure i’ve seen the margin for error is 23cm so just to make it easy if a player has a body part that he can score with 30cm or more offside then he’s off. If this is possible then it’s without doubt the best option.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I'll ask again:

What do you class as offside now, in the past and what would you like it to be going forward?

The Premier league stats are for all offside decisions not just tight calls using the current rules (any body part is offside if it's beyond the last defender).

The picture you've chosen shows Deli Ali offside as no scoring body part is level with a defender (arms don't count. this is the most simple rule in football and yet two people have now got this wrong). It also may be the case that Alli started his run level with Arrons and has moved significantly from frame to frame as we don't know without the whole film when the ball touched Erikson's (or could be Lamela) boot. One thing is for certain the human eye has a 30% chance of getting that completely wrong if there was no player in the way, as it is it's probably closer to 100% guess from the linesman as they can't see shit.

Dele Ali’s Back leg would definitely be level with some part of Stieperman’s leg, even if it’s not , let’s move him an inch backward, he’s still gaining an unfair advantage.

He’s closer to the goaline than the second most deep player, ergo gaining an advantage being offside.

Edit - just re read and saw your sanctimonious comment about simple rule in football being wrong when it is in fact you being wrong. Johnny got to Johnny though. I’m not referring to Arrons, I’m referring to Stieperman.