The Manager Sacked/Hired Thread 2023/24

[Tony Towner]

I know y’all want trophies, but from the outside it would look a little crazy to bin the guy who got to a Euro Finals. Ain’t easy even with top talent, surely.

That tournament was an underperformance, essentially at home, playing an average Italy side and outcoached by Mancini in the final. I wouldn't blame any manager for losing on penalties, we shouldn't have needed them though.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Who are we wasting then?

Alexander-Arnold? We can't give him the same role he has at Liverpool and Walker is still a far better conventional RB.

Foden? I mean he started the opener at the LAST Euros, let alone this one. Pretty sure he'll start wide left this time, that's ok isn't it?

Grealish? Looks like he isn't the player people thought he was when they were saying "build the team around him" (what does that even mean?) not so long ago.

We get the best out of Kane who is the best striker in the world, we have a keeper who will go past the England record for clean sheets at tournaments this year, Bellingham and Saka as I say are producing loads for England. Rice replicates club form for England routinely.

Who am I missing?

 

[Tony Towner]

You'd have to ask Del, he said wasting.

 

[Del Woppio]

Who are we wasting then?

Alexander-Arnold? We can't give him the same role he has at Liverpool and Walker is still a far better conventional RB.

Foden? I mean he started the opener at the LAST Euros, let alone this one. Pretty sure he'll start wide left this time, that's ok isn't it?

Grealish? Looks like he isn't the player people thought he was when they were saying "build the team around him" (what does that even mean?) not so long ago.

We get the best out of Kane who is the best striker in the world, we have a keeper who will go past the England record for clean sheets at tournaments this year, Bellingham and Saka as I say are producing loads for England. Rice replicates club form for England routinely.

Who am I missing?

No I get it all, and I'm not saying he's a sheister, and his record is excellent and some of the alternatives don't look great on paper, and I haven't got and cba to get the stats to back up any of my feelings that he's not getting, and isn't capable of/minded to play the kind of football that will get the best out of Saka/Foden/Bellingham, but here I am

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

International football is an odd beast.

Doubt you'd be that interested in any of Vicente del Bosque, Jogi Löw, Fernando Santos or Lionel Scaloni if Gary O'Neil left Wolves this summer. They've won five out of the last seven World Cups/Euros between them. The guy who won the Euros before that has been dead for 10 years. Before that it's Marcello Lippi who last managed outside China in 2010 (Italy crashing out of a piss easy World Cup group with 0 wins) and Otto Rehhagel who is nearly 86 years old.

And Deschamps isn't all that either, you can fire any of your Southgate criticisms his way, arguably even more so.

 

[Aikiwolf]

I've never got the argument against Southgate, with him we've had a semi and a final (the only final I've ever seen us in).

The argument seems to be "he'll never take the hand break off" which is similar to "gerrit forward" in terms of analysis.

He's a good role model, thoughtful and seems to be well liked by the England squad, plus he's delivered some good tournaments.

 

[Tony Towner]

That's great, participation badges all round. Surely context, squad, opposition and situation matters? First World Cup, he got further than that squad should have, but was helped by the draw and lost to a Croatia team who were on a par, but the manager made changes he didn't react to and took us apart in the second half. The Euros, as I said earlier, everything was set up to win that tournament, he didn't and again after taking the lead, couldn't react to what the opposition did to change the game. The last World Cup, our squad was better than a quarter final team. Tough draw, but ultimately he failed.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

How is Deschamps any better? Probably has had better players than England over the run of things and:

2014: Limp defeat to Germany in the QF
2016: Bottled a home final to a Fernando Santos team without Ronaldo FFS
2018: Won, fair play, wouldn't say they were good to watch though
2021: Out to Switzerland on pens
2022: Lost the final on pens to an inferior team, which you're holding against Southgate

And they're the best team, with us 2nd.

I don't know what you're after.

 

[Aikiwolf]

I just think people are under estimating how difficult international management is. It's not as easy as bringing in Pep and signing loads of good players (of course city also had a potential 115 breaches of financial rules).

International managers have very limited time with a squad, overly clever tactics are likely to fail as the time to drill and practice is limited. Ultimately you need to be able to get your tactics across in a succinct time frame, get a team to gel and have a bit of luck.

 

[Tony Towner]

That's the 3rd straw man you've built in this discussion. Who is discussing Deschamps, Ward Prowse and entertaining players other than you? The bottom line is we have for the last 2 tournaments had a squad who could and arguably should win it. He's not delivered, time will tell if he does the 3rd time.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Just that if Deschamps has won 1 out of 5...it can't be that bloody easy can it.

And Italy were way better than you're making out. A hell of a lot better than the Portugal team (0 group stage wins) that won 2016 for a start.

 

[Tony Towner]

Just that if Deschamps has won 1 out of 5...it can't be that bloody easy can it.

And Italy were way better than you're making out. A hell of a lot better than the Portugal team (0 group stage wins) that won 2016 for a start.

Failed to even qualify for the next tournament which was only 18 months later

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Because their defenders in 2021 were old and fell off a cliff.

You haven't given one alternative or suggested what Southgate should be doing differently!

 

[Tony Towner]

The alternative isn't easy, I don't think they should necessarily come from club football, Carsley has won a tournament with an underage group, I'd be looking at him, but don't know enough about how he's rated within the FA or his players to pitch a stake in the ground for him. I wouldn't sack Southgate, I don't think he deserves that, which is why I said the Utd thing is win, win

 

[pagey]

This feels like it would be a shocking move. Don't have Southgate down as a exceptional day to day head coach but all I have to go on is his spell at Boro

https://twitter.com/x/status/1770078222186672612

Do they have enough right backs?

 

[Wilf Wolf]

Southgate has had exceptionally kind draws. The only team he’s beaten that you wouldn’t expect was Germany and they’re not exactly top drawer at the moment. The Croatia game was like watching a slow motion car crash. We just sat deeper and deeper and the inevitable happened. We have a ridiculous array of attacking talent and hopefully at the fourth time of asking he can get the best out of them rather than be so defensive.

 

[Langers]

Deutsch is making way better arguments in Southgate's defence than I ever could - but I would add that international management is so different to club management.

Southgate isn't there to coach some of the best players in the world who are in turn coached by some of the best coaches in the world.

He's there to assemble a squad who get on well, have chemistry on the pitch, do what he needs off the pitch and to get results.

He's done a great job, we're way more competitive and likeable than we've been since I can remember, we've been a whisker away from doing what only 1 previous manager has ever done for England and has players who very rarely let him down, despite what happens at their clubs. Why would he not pick them?

Genuine question but who would/will do a better job?

FWIW I don't think Southgate's qualities transfer to club football - it's a totally different skillset that's required and what he excels in benefits England.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

That 2018 squad was objectively rubbish though. Ashley Young, Fabian Delph, Jesse Lingard, Phil Jones, Danny Rose, a broken Danny Welbeck, an ancient Gary Cahill?

And by definition we'll be favourites in 90%+ of international fixtures, you can't really hold that against him.

 

[pagey]

I'd say the pool of players he's had to select from have been as good as any I've witnessed, including the early 2000s when we failed to get out the group in South Africa.

We should be reaching semi finals minimum and with the players we have in attack, we should be less pragmatic and trust them more.

Kane, Foden, Saka, Grealish, Maddison etc then behind them Bellingham and Rice surely should have enough to see off anyone. I'd accept defeat if they gave it a go, but it's almost as if they're being held back.

Only position I'd worry about is between the posts, all of them seem to have a moment that makes me wince.

 

[Tony Towner]

Pickford is a decent keeper, not world class (my subjective definition being one of the best 3 players in your position), but a competent International player. Centre half is where we are short.