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Hillsborough

Seems Liverpool fans have been cleared, The Sun was wrong and there were amended police records
 
"The vast majority of fans on the pitch assisted in rescuing and evacuating the dead and injured."

Does anyone think they'll now be an apology from Kelvin McKenzie?
 
I've always found it a bit odd that a lot of the blame always seems to go the way of the police for failing to control the crowd but i've been to many events with large crowds and never seen them needing to be controlled, why dont the people who behaved so recklessly rarely seem to attract their share of the blame?
 
Wonder if any of those who 'amended' statements will get done for perverting the course of justice?
 
Surely it was the behaviour of the crowd that caused the problem not the police
 
MARKakaJIM said:
I've always found it a bit odd that a lot of the blame always seems to go the way of the police for failing to control the crowd but i've been to many events with large crowds and never seen them needing to be controlled, why dont the people who behaved so recklessly rarely seem to attract their share of the blame?
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Different era mate for a start.
 
malta mick said:
Surely it was the behaviour of the crowd that caused the problem not the police
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It was where these crowds were sent despite the area already being dangerously overcrowded that caused the problems.

A catalogue of preventable errors.

I hope these families can get some closure now. God only knows what they must have been through these past 23 years.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
I've always found it a bit odd that a lot of the blame always seems to go the way of the police for failing to control the crowd but i've been to many events with large crowds and never seen them needing to be controlled, why dont the people who behaved so recklessly rarely seem to attract their share of the blame?
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Hey Mark what was the reckless behaviour out of interest.
 
Haggstone said:
Different era mate for a start.
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That may negate my experiences of large crowds but it doesn't absolve the members of the crowd from their behaviour does it?

From what i've been told by older family members the way Liverpool fans acted that day wasn't anything out of the ordinary, they'd witnessed them behaving in similar fashion several times at different grounds around the country and were in no way surprised when it eventually resulted in horrific consequences.
 
playtheace said:
Hey Mark what was the reckless behaviour out of interest.
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Surging into the ground like a herd of cattle with no regard for whoever or whatever may be in their way seems pretty reckless to me, yes the police could've done better to control them but should a group of people, largely adults as well, be required to be 'controlled' in such a manner or should they be responsible for their actions?
 
MARKakaJIM said:
That may negate my experiences of large crowds but it doesn't absolve the members of the crowd from their behaviour does it?

From what i've been told by older family members the way Liverpool fans acted that day wasn't anything out of the ordinary, they'd witnessed them behaving in similar fashion several times at different grounds around the country and were in no way surprised when it eventually resulted in horrific consequences.
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How exactly did the Liverpool fans behave that day?
 
wombourne wolves said:
How exactly did the Liverpool fans behave that day?
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From what i've been told they were almost always a hazard to themselves and anyone they encountered back then, plenty of drinking, turning up late for games, forcing their way into grounds however possible.

Sure the police didn't cover themselves in glory but the Liverpool fans often seem to escape any criticism what so ever for their part in the disaster.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
Surging into the ground like a herd of cattle with no regard for whoever or whatever may be in their way seems pretty reckless to me, yes the police could've done better to control them but should a group of people, largely adults as well, be required to be 'controlled' in such a manner or should they be responsible for their actions?
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An extra gate that led to the tunnel that they surged through shouldn't have been opened in the first place. Not the fault of any of the fans.

It was opened to alleviate the surge of fans outside.
 
Langers said:
An extra gate that led to the tunnel that they surged through shouldn't have been opened in the first place. Not the fault of any of the fans.

It was opened to alleviate the surge of fans outside.
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Just because it's open doesn't mean they all have to charge through with such force though does it? The police fucked up by opening it up in such a way but i'm sure it soon became obvious to many that there just wasn't enough space, yet more and more fans kept charging in, are they free of any blame because they were 'allowed' to do so?
 
MARKakaJIM said:
From what i've been told they were almost always a hazard to themselves and anyone they encountered back then, plenty of drinking, turning up late for games, forcing their way into grounds however possible.

Sure the police didn't cover themselves in glory but the Liverpool fans often seem to escape any criticism what so ever for their part in the disaster.
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Which part of this new independant report backs up your conclusion?
 
Langers said:
It was where these crowds were sent despite the area already being dangerously overcrowded that caused the problems.
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I remember the day well,but I don't really know much about the details.

Don't the arrangement officials know how many people go in one section?
Aren't tickets marked which section you're assigned to?
Do the Police round up bunches of people and send them into a section?
Are the supporters somewhat to blame for going into the wrong section?
Was this something that everyone thought was bound to happen some day because of a bad system?
 
While not wishing to be disrespectful to those Liverpool fans who lost their lives, I have seen the footage of the scenes outside the Leppings Lane entrance shortly before kick off. There was a mad scramble to get in, and some fans did gain access without tickets. These documents released today do show a disgraceful cover up took place, but I am still of the opinion that had fans entered the ground in a more controlled manner, then this disaster could have been averted. Sadly, stewards at Hillsborough unknowingly made things worse. With so many fans trying to get in, they opened a set of gates to allow fans in, and they swarmed through it. The crowd surge that followed brought about the terrible scenes that some had forecast ever since the fences were put up. So really, had our football grounds not been plagued by hooliganism in the seventies and eighties, there would have been no fences, and fans would have had means of escape.

I think the main problem after the crowd surge was that no-one seemed to know what to do. Police climbed the fences telling fans to get back, unaware that fans were dying in there. Then we had the line of policemen across the half way line, put there to prevent Liverpool fans attacking Nottingham Forest fans. By that time it should have been obvious that a major incident was taking place. Then we had ambulances unable to reach injured fans, and having to carry the injured on stretchers across the pitch. It took some time for any kind of organised response to take place, and that is why the coroner was wrong to refuse to allow evidence concerning events after 3.15pm.

While there were faults all round, the behaviour of the Sun newspaper was contemptible. They accused Liverpool fans of robbing the dead and dying, yet to the best of my knowledge never offered any proof to back up their allegation. I trust there will be a front page apology in tomorrow's edition of the newspaper.

Finally, terrible as Hillsborough was, it was a tragedy that had been waiting to happen for some time. It is sad that it took such a terrible death toll to make everyone connected with the game realise that drastic changes were needed.
 
MARKakaJIM said:
Just because it's open doesn't mean they all have to charge through with such force though does it? The police $#@!ed up by opening it up in such a way but i'm sure it soon became obvious to many that there just wasn't enough space, yet more and more fans kept charging in, are they free of any blame because they were 'allowed' to do so?
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How could people at the back of that crowd be aware of the horror unfolding 50 or more metres away from them - they wouldn't have seen anything. The police had eyes everywhere and failed to act appropriately.

Leaving Loftus Road from the away end is not an entirely voluntary act. The concourseis narrow and you effectively move with the crowd. Had anything untoward happened after the game there would have been no escape for the many Wolves fans.

An individual has very little impact on a crowd in such situations which is why we have people in place to exercise some control.
 
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