Evolution or revolution?

[Johnny75]

That’s how 3-4-3 should be played. Your forwards play inside the the width of the penalty area and WBs provide width. The forwards playing inverted cutting in and combing with the CF. This is what we did in the championship. Neves and Saiss never really got forward, Douglas and Doc stayed wide, Cav, Costa, Jota played inverted.

Saiss and Neves dropped into WB positions to cover when going forward, occasionally Saiss or Ndiaye would get forward into the box.

Now we tried this when we first got promoted, but after the bad run “shut up shop” and it’s been like that since. Now theoretically with better players there’s no reason we can’t just do the same again but Traore can’t/won’t do what’s required so we play inverted WBs instead.

Simply just play Podence and Neto, with Donck behind doing the Ndiaye work. We literally did it to good effect against Sheff Utd. Hopefully with a full squad to pick from we go back to it

Spot on here Punts. Have to play a high press in this league to make it work as opposed to dropping off as we did in the Champ.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Spot on here Punts. Have to play a high press in this league to make it work as opposed to dropping off as we did in the Champ.

Well we didn’t really have to do anything in the championship. We were lethal on set pieces and the front 3 were far too good for the league so would often score out of nothing.

Teams didn’t really try against us either, just sat deep, particularly at home. If they ever did get at us they rarely took their chances and at that level Boly was winning any 1 v 1.

Not as easy to do this at the next level with middle of the road players.

 

[Del Woppio]

That's settled then. Sell Adama, buy a third forward to replace jota, try Dendonker or Saiss next to Neves (or buy a better option) and get an attacking LWB in and play Marcal at LCB.

 

[Alan]

That's settled then. Sell Adama, buy a third forward to replace jota, try Dendonker or Saiss next to Neves (or buy a better option) and get an attacking LWB in and play Marcal at LCB.

Easy! Should have it all settled by tomorrow night. :icon_lol:

 

[Del Woppio]

Our starting line up for West Ham away, 2 years ago today was:

Rui
Bennett/coady/boly
Doc/Neves/moutinho/jonny
Jota/Costa
Raul.

When we consider the jonny injury and Moutinho being two years older, there's an argument to say that the eleven we put out against Fulham is only going to marginally stronger. 4 transfer windows on. I don't think that's brilliant, I've got to be honest.

 

[Johnny75]

We've improved the squad as a whole but if you're just talking about that team then we have improved 3 of those XI players.

Pretty average you could say but Coady has become a full International and Raul a world class striker.

Rui was already a world class keeper so there's 3 spots you would struggle to improve upon.

We don't have the CB or CM competition we probably should have but then there's work to do and the window hasn't closed yet.

 

[BGreenWolf]

Our problem was never the starting eleven. Our problem has been the bench, and that's been profoundly improved.

 

[prawnking]

Our problem was never the starting eleven. Our problem has been the bench, and that's been profoundly improved.

I don't think the evidence is there to go that far just yet.

Hoever, Vitinha and Silva look promising and well thought of, but it's a big ask to suddenly come in and start performing at PL level. How ever much we wish them to be successful, we have to actually see them in action more IMO before we can confidently say they'll have more impact than Vallejo, MGW and Cutrone. Fingers crossed.

 

[PuntsWolf]

Our problem was never the starting eleven. Our problem has been the bench, and that's been profoundly improved.

But Jonny is injured, Jota sold, Moutinho older, Bennett not improved (it may be Hoever, but the lads barely played and senior football and 18).

So now it’s the first XI that needs improving, particularly if we want to finish higher than 7th.

Edit - plus you need to factor in other teams strengthening/not being as bad.

 

[Johnny75]

How can you say we haven't improved on Bennett when he doesn't play?

Jota has been replaced by Podence who looks a very capable replacement and Neto has arrived since that team.

Jonny is injured but we have Marcal to cover that. For some bizarre reason people think Jonny is dead and never going to come back. It's all very odd.

Moutinho has an understudy and whilst I agree we need a different type of body in midfield we have Donck to cover which is 4 players for 2 posittions.

 

[prawnking]

How can you say we haven't improved on Bennett when he doesn't play?

Jota has been replaced by Podence who looks a very capable replacement and Neto has arrived since that team.

Jonny is injured but we have Marcal to cover that. For some bizarre reason people think Jonny is dead and never going to come back. It's all very odd.

Moutinho has an understudy and whilst I agree we need a different type of body in midfield we have Donck to cover which is 4 players for 2 posittions.

There's a lot of wishful thinking and Wolves fan-bias here tbf.

Shifting Boly over to the Bennett position and putting Saiss on the left isn't exactly an upgrade, it just means we still have a generally solid defence most of the time, which we've generally had as long as Nuno has been here. Saiss isn't that much better individually, and it arguably moves Boly to a less effective side

I don't think Nuno has clearly settled on which of the three wide forwards are his first choice, but while they both have different attributes they haven't played enough (especially Podence) to be definitive upgrades on what Jota achieved. We all want them to be, but that isn't the same thing?

Marcal has played one full game? Canny short term Jonny stop and probably a decent utility player and experienced head, but can't call any more than that right now? We'll be lucky to see much of Jonny this season, so writing him off isn't that odd

Moutinho's understudy is very green, as already mentioned, hopefully Nuno isn't shy about using him

 

[YoungWolf]

Squad that day:
Rui
Bennett Coady Boly
Doherty Moutinho Neves Jonny
Costa Raul Jota

Subs: Ruddy, Hause, Vinagre, Saiss, MGW, Traore, Bonatini

Full strength now:
Rui
Boly Coady Saiss
Semedo Neves Moutinho/Donck Marcal
Traore Raul Podence

Subs: Ruddy, Hoever, Vinagre, Moutinho/Donck, Vitinha, Neto, Silva

Is a much better team/squad, no?

I agree with Johnny regarding midfield options, but still think we have decent depth now. And ideally, if Hoever isn't that solution, an upgrade at centre back.

I think there is still a chance we sign a midfielder (Palhinha) and maybe young-ish, wide forward (Idrissi seems a good shout).

But if we go past deadine day with the above squad I am still happy to be honest.

 

[PuntsWolf]

How can you say we haven't improved on Bennett when he doesn't play?

Jota has been replaced by Podence who looks a very capable replacement and Neto has arrived since that team.

Jonny is injured but we have Marcal to cover that. For some bizarre reason people think Jonny is dead and never going to come back. It's all very odd.

Moutinho has an understudy and whilst I agree we need a different type of body in midfield we have Donck to cover which is 4 players for 2 posittions.

Del said “our team is at best marginally stronger 2 years on”.

BGreenWolf then countered that by saying “our first XI didn’t need upgrading”.

So in then said what I said. We haven’t upgraded Bennett. I mean we tried to upgrade him before he had even Played a game but Miranda and Batth were rubbish. Then Saiss was rubbish on the right, then Vallejo was rubbish and now we’ve settled on moving Boly over.

I haven’t said Jonny is dead. But he won’t be fit till Feb at best. That’s a long way away. Do I think Marcal is better or even as good as? No I don’t, but I guess I can’t say that for sure.

I rate Podence a lot, id have started him ahead of Jota before he was sold. But I Was purely stating that we’d sold players from that first West Ham team. Being generous let’s say Marcal and Podence are direct swaps for Jonny and Jota. That means the only position better is Semedo for Doc.

We have improved our bench (low bar). And these kids may be world beaters. But with United improving, Chelsea improving, Everton improving, Arsenal improving, i wouldn’t say a team that finished 7th twice is going to massively improve its points haul by signing some unproven youths and a Doc upgrade.

 

[Alan]

I am absolutely not having that Saiss isn't an upgrade on Benno, even accepting how poor the last game was for Romain.

Against City he was still our best defender, even after the (stupid) penalty.

 

[Tony Towner]

The second part of that final sentence makes the first impossible Alan.

 

[Alan]

It doesn't, much in the same way that Raul can have a shit game but still score a goal.

 

[Tony Towner]

I cba to argue as it's palpably bollocks, but a defender who gives away a needless penalty when an attacker poses no threat which in turn becomes the games turning point cannot be your best defender irrespective of what he does in the other 89 minutes unless the rest of your back 5 each gave away a goal aswell

 

[Alan]

Okay, don't argue it then.

 

[PuntsWolf]

I am absolutely not having that Saiss isn't an upgrade on Benno, even accepting how poor the last game was for Romain.

Against City he was still our best defender, even after the (stupid) penalty.

Is Romain Saiss a better player than Bennett - yes.
Did we sign Saiss to play CB - no.
Is he better at defensive basics - not so sure.

We’ve been looking for the “Bennett upgrade” since Nuno joined. Saiss is better for the team in a possession sense, but when Nuno tried replacing him with Saiss he found his way back in as Saiss was a disaster zone. He isn’t going to be good enough to play for a top 6 club, he’s just filled the gap for us whilst we have failed to sign anyone decent.

Average defenders can be made to look good in defensive systems (Scott Dann, Roger Johnson). If we play more expansively then Saiss will continue to make mistakes. The three goals he’s given away pretty much on his own in the last two games are awful.

 

[Premier Quality]

Agree with that - Bennett was a good defender, he just couldn’t fit the style of football we want to play because his passing is best described as “agricultural”. Saiss has done really well and fits in with our style really well, but isn’t a fantastic defender.

Ideally we’d buy someone who is a natural defender, can play the ball out, and has pace (which neither of those two have), because to have a more expansive style, you need defenders who can defend really well one on one, But we’ll see