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Climate Change Debate

Im drained after spending the night with your mum, TBH.
 
HAzelGroveWolf said:
It seems that a obvious leg pull upsets a few, my apologies, I was not using it to prop up my arguement, that is clear.
I note that there is plenty of issue expressed from across the political spectrum with regard to current policy.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/11893698/Hinkley-a-truly-major-national-scandal.html
Click to expand...

no prob. i didn't take offence and noticed the smiley in any case.

classic privatisation analysis in the comments from the link.
I'm always reminded of this quote about water privatisation.
"1. The government privatises the profitable bits of the water industry on the cheap - underselling your taxpayer investment
2. Your taxes continue to fund the unprofitable bits of the water industry
3. The privatised company puts up bills, overcharging you
4. The privatised company puts up the pay of its directors and pays generous dividends to wealthy shareholders
5. The government cuts taxes on the profits of the privatised company
6. The privatised company refuses to invest in maintaining or upgrading the taxpayer funded infrastructure it inherited, so government introduces a tax credit scheme meaning you the taxpayer are paying for the upgrade to an industry that the privatised company profits from
7. Government has constructed a system in which you the taxpayer subsidise the people ripping you off
8. Government gives out knighthoods to the people ripping you off

note the article itself has been written by a climate change sceptic, i presume, so not everyone would agree with solutions proposed by him.
 
nimrod said:
no prob. i didn't take offence and noticed the smiley in any case.

classic privatisation analysis in the comments from the link.
I'm always reminded of this quote about water privatisation.
"1. The government privatises the profitable bits of the water industry on the cheap - underselling your taxpayer investment
2. Your taxes continue to fund the unprofitable bits of the water industry
3. The privatised company puts up bills, overcharging you
4. The privatised company puts up the pay of its directors and pays generous dividends to wealthy shareholders
5. The government cuts taxes on the profits of the privatised company
6. The privatised company refuses to invest in maintaining or upgrading the taxpayer funded infrastructure it inherited, so government introduces a tax credit scheme meaning you the taxpayer are paying for the upgrade to an industry that the privatised company profits from
7. Government has constructed a system in which you the taxpayer subsidise the people ripping you off
8. Government gives out knighthoods to the people ripping you off

note the article itself has been written by a climate change sceptic, i presume, so not everyone would agree with solutions proposed by him.
Click to expand...

It is refreshing when people think outside their particular political bubble. I find in general that the comment section in online articles is the must read. There are too many glaring exceptions however.
 
Just gonna pop this in here:

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We were talking about wind turbines on the way back from London the other day. Someone asked how much they cost to build each one, and how long it takes to pay back the initial outlay. Anyone know? Are they expensive to maintain?

Also how much power would one turbine on it's own generate if it was going 24/7? Enough to power a whole street?
 
The Bear said:
We were talking about wind turbines on the way back from London the other day. Someone asked how much they cost to build each one, and how long it takes to pay back the initial outlay. Anyone know? Are they expensive to maintain?

Also how much power would one turbine on it's own generate if it was going 24/7? Enough to power a whole street?
Click to expand...

Typical industrial turbines are rated at around a megawatt, around say 300 kettles worth.
Costs are amortised over the lifetime and hence the strike price. See Mr Homewood's article.
 
HAzelGroveWolf said:
Typical industrial turbines are rated at around a megawatt, around say 300 kettles worth.
Costs are amortised over the lifetime and hence the strike price. See Mr Homewood's article.
Click to expand...

That really hasn't got anywhere near addressing the question that was asked, has it.
 
HAzelGroveWolf said:
Typical industrial turbines are rated at around a megawatt, around say 300 kettles worth.
Costs are amortised over the lifetime and hence the strike price. See Mr Homewood's article.
Click to expand...

That really hasn't got anywhere near addressing the question that was asked, has it.
 
The Bear said:
We were talking about wind turbines on the way back from London the other day. Someone asked how much they cost to build each one, and how long it takes to pay back the initial outlay. Anyone know? Are they expensive to maintain?

Also how much power would one turbine on it's own generate if it was going 24/7? Enough to power a whole street?
Click to expand...

A typical turbine is about 3MW, but they can go up to 10MW. A typical 3MV is several million quid, but costs vary based on installation.

The London Array generates about 342MW on average from 175 turbines, so about 2MW per turbine.

Payback time is hard to calculate, because we dont know how much the energy companies pay for the energy - we only know what we're charged. Typically in the UK we pay 10p per kwH, give or take. So lets say they pay 5p to the supplier.

So one unit would earn 5p * hours per year * 2000 kW = £876,000 pounds.

So you're talking about a payback period of maybe 5 years. Very rough though. Could easily vary by a few years either side.

It compares quite favourably given the guarantess we need to give nuclear power to make it profitable.

Lotsa info here : http://www.ewea.org/wind-energy-basics/faq/
 
Cheers Vis.

We were guessing at between £50-100k each for the ones you see along the motorways. Seems we were a bit off!
 
Visage said:
Payback time is hard to calculate, because we dont know how much the energy companies pay for the energy - we only know what we're charged. Typically in the UK we pay 10p per kwH, give or take. So lets say they pay 5p to the supplier.

So one unit would earn 5p * hours per year * 2000 kW = £876,000 pounds.

So you're talking about a payback period of maybe 5 years. Very rough though. Could easily vary by a few years either way
Click to expand...

you need to apply an availability factor to that calc, which for base case modelling may be, say, 35%. anything achieved above is upside.

on top is the 'green subsidy', either under the RO where a wind farm gets an extra 0.9 * c£45/mwh (ie 4p on elec despatch), or under the new CfD where a tariff is bid and gvt tops up the 'supplier' payment to the auction price. Last CfD was 8p for onshore wind.

so you could use 8p instead of 5p above and apply an availability factor of 35% (my guess) for base case revenue. there's a couple other complexities as a project will face other charges and a PPA discount against this but it's ok for comparison.

there will be operating costs as well, not in your calc which you'd take into account for payback, but i'd imagine 5-7 years operation is about right.
 
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