O'Neil In, Out and Shaking it all about

[PuntsWolf]

I don't think it's a silver bullet either, I think it'd help though. An extra CB would have prevented Collins goal in my opinion, or a more switched on Toti or CM.

The corner goals are inexplicable, but also again, I think another CB would have some sort of impact, yes.

Giving Semeo and RAN more freedom and having defenders in behind, again would benefit us.

The Collins goal is because Toti is taking up an acceptable position in a 3, not in a 2. He needed to retreat to between the sticks rather than bizarrely try and take up some random space in front of the near post. He’s doing nothing there. That is just downright poor CB play. I’d like to say it’s because he’s inexperienced in a 2. But he’s a fucking professional footballer playing in the PL. These are basics of the job at any level.

Theoretically if we had 5 at the back there’d have been more men in there to deal with it. But in all likelihood Toti would have been in the LB position and if the “extra CB” did exactly the same as Toti did then the result would have been the same.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

If you look at how we initially set up under Mick in the PL in 2009/10:

----------------------Hennessey-----------------------

Foley------------Stearman--------Mancienne----------Ward

Kightly----------Henry----------Milijas-----------Jarvis

-----------------Doyle----------Ebanks-Blake------------

That's not a horrible side but it is one that got easily played through and we conceded far too many.

So he went:

------------------------Hahnemann------------------------

Zubar------------Craddock--------Berra-----------Ward

---------------Henry-----Mancienne----Jones-------------

---------Foley--------------Doyle--------------Jarvis-----------

Which is objectively, much more horrible. But it made sense and we managed to scrape points together.

Putting Santi Bueno in for Carlos Forbs is not the same thing. It's not pragmatic, it's stupid.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It isn't though is it.

If you want some fun, list the comfortable wins we've had under Gary O'Neil in the Premier League. Three centre halves, two centre halves, whatever. Because I reckon there's one, Everton at home last season. Even Brentford away was 4-1 but we gave up tons of chances.

Why is the comfort of the win important now!?

I just want a win, regardless of the comfort.

 

[Johnny75]

I don't think I do put more emphasis on the formation at all.

I'm looking at all of it as package, the formation, the set up, the mentality.

I'm being told it's nothing at all to do with formation by many on here

Nobody has said it's nothing to do with formation.

Almost everybody has said that under GoN it doesn't matter what formation we play as he can't organise a defence.

The issue is systemic not formation.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

If you look at how we initially set up under Mick in the PL in 2009/10:

----------------------Hennessey-----------------------

Foley------------Stearman--------Mancienne----------Ward

Kightly----------Henry----------Milijas-----------Jarvis

-----------------Doyle----------Ebanks-Blake------------

That's not a horrible side but it is one that got easily played through and we conceded far too many.

So he went:

------------------------Hahnemann------------------------

Zubar------------Craddock--------Berra-----------Ward

---------------Henry-----Mancienne----Jones-------------

---------Foley--------------Doyle--------------Jarvis-----------

Which is objectively, much more horrible. But it made sense and we managed to scrape points together.

Putting Santi Bueno in for Carlos Forbs is not the same thing. It's not pragmatic, it's stupid.

Not sure how that's relevant?

That side had defensive full backs for a start, we have attacking WBs at fullback. RAN is one of our best attacking and most creative players, who can't (or won't) defend. We are conceding headed goals too.

I keep being told to explain why, and I keep explaining, and keep still getting told I am not explaining why.

It's quite frustrating

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Why is the comfort of the win important now!?

I just want a win, regardless of the comfort.

I mean control, us being obviously the better team, not worrying that we'll concede any minute soon.

We had that before. We don't have it now. We don't and won't have it under Gary O'Neil with your precious extra centre half. We wouldn't if he picked two extra centre halves.

It isn't the formation, it isn't that "we can't play a back four", it isn't that suddenly Nelson Semedo "isn't a right back", it's the tactical approach that is very deliberate and won't alter until we alter the manager.

 

[White Wolf]

Both highly thought of at times but I wouldn't want that Stearman - Mancienne pairing even in the Championship! Shocking to think we started a Premier League season like that. Mick gave Stearman a few goes at RB as well.

Plenty of teams defend corners acceptably without three CBs, we make basic errors and look poorly-drilled which is more on the coaching to me. We were more solid in the home games under Lopetegui using a back four than we have been anytime since 19/20 so it's not like we are getting all that much out of three at the back. In terms of pure personnel I don't think adding Bueno in place of an attacking player is going to improve us much.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

It isn't though is it.

So it's nothing to do with formation? How can you ridicule that Jones quote for close to two decades and then say this?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I mean control, us being obviously the better team, not worrying that we'll concede any minute soon.

We had that before. We don't have it now. We don't and won't have it under Gary O'Neil with your precious extra centre half. We wouldn't if he picked two extra centre halves.

It isn't the formation, it isn't that "we can't play a back four", it isn't that suddenly Nelson Semedo "isn't a right back", it's the tactical approach that is very deliberate and won't alter until we alter the manager.

Many (not necessarily you) wanted a much more attacking manager after Nuno, they didn't appreciate that control his structure gave us. They wanted to be entertained. Last season we had that. I hate how we fail to control games, but be careful what you (broad "you") wish for etc.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

So it's nothing to do with formation? How can you ridicule that Jones quote for close to two decades and then say this?

I know you want an argument but WTF is this.

This was when Jones set us up in a 4-1-3-2 formation that meant our entire left side was Lee Naylor. And God bless him, but he was not equipped for that.

We aren't going to look better with your stupid comfort blanket. To be honest he probably will do it because he was daft enough to say so last week. When that doesn't work, where does that leave you?

 

[Johnny75]

Not sure how that's relevant?

That side had defensive full backs for a start, we have attacking WBs at fullback

We don't.

. RAN is one of our best attacking and most creative players, who can't (or won't) defend.

Not true. He's pocketed Salah twice.

We are conceding headed goals too.

Bad defending that has been explained a number of times.

I keep being told to explain why, and I keep explaining, and keep still getting told I am not explaining why.

It's quite frustrating

You are just saying the same thing as you've made your mind up. You are just making stuff up about RAN and Semedo now.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Plenty of teams defend corners acceptably without three CBs, we make basic errors and look poorly-drilled which is more on the coaching to me.

I absolutely agree. I'm not saying otherwise, but the coaching isn't going to improve until Shi grabs his balls, so hopefully - because I want us to improve the chances of getting more points I feel we need to bring in a 3rd CB because it will improve our defending of set pieces and push RAN forward ONE OF our best attacking players.

Anyway I'm really bored of repeating such an obvious point and being treated like I'm a moron (by a couple, not all) so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

No-one is treating you like a moron, but you are actively ignoring how shite we were at the back last season, with three centre halves.

We're also now without the one that you thought was good.

 

[Squeak]

I don't think it's a silver bullet either, I think it'd help though. An extra CB would have prevented Collins goal in my opinion, or a more switched on Toti or CM.

The corner goals are inexplicable, but also again, I think another CB would have some sort of impact, yes.

Giving Semeo and RAN more freedom and having defenders in behind, again would benefit us.

Man to man marking would make a difference rather than the zonal marking bullshit we have failed with. Quite obvious that if you zonal mark and only have one man vs two opposition players in that zone what might happen. The Collins goal was criminal either way but if you give someone the responsibility of tracking him, he doesn't find it as easy to score. That was just one example of goals conceded mind, there have been others.

As for Semedo and RAN, they don't need more freedom. They both need to know their first responsibility is to stop the opposition scoring. Semedo is powder puff in that regard and something of a coward in the tackle... whenever he isn't evading it. RAN, is a huge part of our problems though. We all like him as a player and what he can bring but he leaves us vulnerable so many times and if he isn't in sync with whoever we play on that side of the pitch with him, it's just asking for the floodgates a la Chelsea to open.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

I know you want an argument but WTF is this.

This was when Jones set us up in a 4-1-3-2 formation that meant our entire left side was Lee Naylor. And God bless him, but he was not equipped for that.

We aren't going to look better with your stupid comfort blanket. To be honest he probably will do it because he was daft enough to say so last week. When that doesn't work, where does that leave you?

I want an argument!?

We need "your stupid comfort blanket' (WTF is this by the way dont be a dick) we're bottom of the league and are conceding 3 a game with the much heralded and desired 4 at the back - we don't have the players (or the coach) for it, so we need to change.

The definition of insanity etc...

RAN "pocketing" Salah twice (one about 4 years ago) doesn't make him a defender when he is getting run ragged by every other winger in the league does it.

What does it make him when Madueke is scoring a hat trick?

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

No-one is treating you like a moron, but you are actively ignoring how shite we were at the back last season, with three centre halves.

We're also now without the one that you thought was good.

A significant reason for the drop off last season was our awful striking options after the window and having to play children up front.

Is that being ignored now?

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

Well you can count the clean sheets before we had those injuries if you like.

You'll only need the one hand.

 

[Elephant Pyjamas]

Well you can count the clean sheets before we had those injuries if you like.

You'll only need the one hand.

We don't need clean sheets (as much as they'd be nice) we need points.

 

[Johnny75]

I want an argument?

Yes, yes you do.

RAN "pocketing" Salah twice (one about 4 years ago) doesn't make him a defender when he is getting run ragged by every other winger in the league does it.

What does it make him when Madueke is scoring a hat trick?

Man 1: Player x can't or won't defend
Man 2: I've seen him defend against one of the best players in the world.
Man 1: That doesn't mean he can defend
Man 2: I'm out

 

[Deutsch Wolf]

We need "your stupid comfort blanket' (WTF is this by the way dont be a dick) we're bottom of the league and are conceding 3 a game with the much heralded and desired 4 at the back - we don't have the players (or the coach) for it, so we need to change.

The definition of insanity etc...

So let's play three at the back where <checks notes> we still conceded 2 a game from March onwards.

And where we habitually tap the ball around like a Mark McGhee team.

I dare say you will get your wish. I reckon it'll be a waste of time and nothing will change. And I fucking hate clinging on to stuff from 6-7 years ago, yes that was a good formation for us then, no it is not now. We don't have those players. We don't have that manager.