Woburn Wolf
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I should be walk regardless.
O'Neil aka GONe
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Derby Wolf
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Depressingly accurate
I wouldn't describe any game as a banker this season, especially on the back of 0 wins from 10 this season, and 1 in 20 going further back. Anyone describing this as a banker is way off I'm afraid
big mean bunny
Kiven
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Well 90s stuff is all the rage again.
Tony Towner
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How are we expected to win any games given the opposition to banker is some journey
Bob Hazell;s Red Card
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Bob Hazell;s Red Card
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Agreed, fair comment. My bad.
Deutsch Wolf
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I think they do like him, which is why I don't go in for the personal stuff on O'Neil. The players hated Lage because he was a fucking wanker. I hated him because he was a fucking incompetent wanker.
Is he good enough, probably not, but I don't think he's a bad person or difficult to work for.
Is he good enough, probably not, but I don't think he's a bad person or difficult to work for.
Something I'm wondering: I missed the most of the first games this season, but I've been able to watch the last 4-5 games fully. I've never coached a team (though a long history of playing, but not at pro level) and I'm not saying I'm right but the one frightening thing I'm seeing most of the time is our awfully high risk style of defending and pressing.
It's like we're trying to press aggressively ('Klopp style'?) and force turnovers, but it seems to me it's absolutely too 'high risk, high reward' and not executed well. I remember Cunha scoring one this way in those early games this season, but most of the time it's not executed well enough for premier league level. We are not pressing as a collective unit with the entire team/supporting players leaving too much space between our players to pass through. Most of the time we're just sacrifising one, two or three players to this aggressive style, which leaves spaces between our attackers and midfielders. Then we repeat it in midfield and middle area of the pitch, which opens the space in front of our defence and at that point we're just chasing and trying to plug the gaps we've just opened. It's like the supporting players of the press are one or two steps late from cutting the passing lanes, marking the opposition players close enough making them unplayable or intercepting and propably our defensive line is too low from supporting the midfielders trying to be aggressive (leaving too much space between midfielders and defenders). It makes it too easy to play through our first two lines. Neither does our press push the opposition to just take a long ball (for our CB's and FB's to clear long balls or fight with advantage to opposition attackers back against our goal) because there is too often spaces open for passing through our press. From my point of view it's the reason why our midfielders are in trouble and easy to play through, even though they are at least supposed to be good at defending the central areas. (I really think that especially Andre & Gomes are very good aggressive DMs with the skillset to intercept a lot at this level, but the system makes them look bad.) Once the opposition players get to speed with a couple of passes between our lines with our players trying to be aggressive but everyone a little too late, our defenders have to leave their place in the defensive shape to block the opposite players from getting shots/passes/carrying the ball in our defensive third. That leaves spaces and empty pockets to pass through between our defenders. Everyone is trying to be aggressive, but we're chasing. This makes it look chaotic playing without the ball.
I undestand that you can try the high agressive press (don't think we can, at least the way we're trying to) in the attacking third, but it needs a tight and compact shape with all three lines taking the time and space away from opposition, but we seem to be trying that in wrong areas. Either we should be pressing with the whole team or quit trying to be too aggressive in the two lower thirds of the pitch, even though it starts often from the entire front line of three (sometimes even four with Gomes playing this advanced 8 or something) being passed through. I might be wrong and/or nostalgic but I tend to remember that Nuno's style wasn't as aggressive (or at least we weren't late most of the time when pressing) and we tried to force the opposition to the low danger areas in the wide to press there or take the speed off from the opposition attacks. Now we get opened up from the middle because of this.
Just addressing the press (not the dreadful set piece defending...) Am I seeing it completely wrong or have I missed this conversation earlier in the thread?
It's like we're trying to press aggressively ('Klopp style'?) and force turnovers, but it seems to me it's absolutely too 'high risk, high reward' and not executed well. I remember Cunha scoring one this way in those early games this season, but most of the time it's not executed well enough for premier league level. We are not pressing as a collective unit with the entire team/supporting players leaving too much space between our players to pass through. Most of the time we're just sacrifising one, two or three players to this aggressive style, which leaves spaces between our attackers and midfielders. Then we repeat it in midfield and middle area of the pitch, which opens the space in front of our defence and at that point we're just chasing and trying to plug the gaps we've just opened. It's like the supporting players of the press are one or two steps late from cutting the passing lanes, marking the opposition players close enough making them unplayable or intercepting and propably our defensive line is too low from supporting the midfielders trying to be aggressive (leaving too much space between midfielders and defenders). It makes it too easy to play through our first two lines. Neither does our press push the opposition to just take a long ball (for our CB's and FB's to clear long balls or fight with advantage to opposition attackers back against our goal) because there is too often spaces open for passing through our press. From my point of view it's the reason why our midfielders are in trouble and easy to play through, even though they are at least supposed to be good at defending the central areas. (I really think that especially Andre & Gomes are very good aggressive DMs with the skillset to intercept a lot at this level, but the system makes them look bad.) Once the opposition players get to speed with a couple of passes between our lines with our players trying to be aggressive but everyone a little too late, our defenders have to leave their place in the defensive shape to block the opposite players from getting shots/passes/carrying the ball in our defensive third. That leaves spaces and empty pockets to pass through between our defenders. Everyone is trying to be aggressive, but we're chasing. This makes it look chaotic playing without the ball.
I undestand that you can try the high agressive press (don't think we can, at least the way we're trying to) in the attacking third, but it needs a tight and compact shape with all three lines taking the time and space away from opposition, but we seem to be trying that in wrong areas. Either we should be pressing with the whole team or quit trying to be too aggressive in the two lower thirds of the pitch, even though it starts often from the entire front line of three (sometimes even four with Gomes playing this advanced 8 or something) being passed through. I might be wrong and/or nostalgic but I tend to remember that Nuno's style wasn't as aggressive (or at least we weren't late most of the time when pressing) and we tried to force the opposition to the low danger areas in the wide to press there or take the speed off from the opposition attacks. Now we get opened up from the middle because of this.
Just addressing the press (not the dreadful set piece defending...) Am I seeing it completely wrong or have I missed this conversation earlier in the thread?
Del Woppio
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@FinWolf , I largely agree - our press is very disjointed, two or three players go, but the rest stick and at this level that's a gift to play through. When we do it properly, it's effective (though not without danger, as with every team) but we frequently half arse it and it's really damaging.
Tony Towner
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If think our press is kamikaze now, you should have seen those first 4 or 5 games.
True, but I mean when we try to press and play (even at times against Southampton mostly 2nd half). The first half seemed like "we've got the lead, now let's sit" which didn't work too well in earlier games when we were leading (Villa, probably the most notorious case).
I think that when we succeed in pressing it's more credit to individual players' skills to do it than the system or the style of press. I think that especially Cunha and Gomes are very good and talented at pressing being very agile and quick (both in their own ways).
Wilf Wolf
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The second half press against Southampton worked well but we’ve shown earlier in the season we can do it effectively but not for 90 minutes. On Saturday it worked because we got away with a half-arsed first half and after our second goal Southampton seemed to accept defeat was likely and had no intensity.
